Grant Williams:
Before we get going, here’s the bit where I remind you that nothing we discuss should be considered as investment advice. This conversation is for informational and hopefully entertainment purposes only. So while we hope you find it both informative and entertaining, please do your own research or speak to a financial advisor before putting a dime of your money into these crazy markets. And now on with the show.
Welcome, everybody, to another edition of the Grant Williams Podcast. Joining me shortly is my friend David Dorr, who’s been a guest on the podcast a couple of times before, when the subject at hand has been the world of cryptocurrencies. And David has just been a fantastic guest on those subjects. But the subject at hand today is something of a very different nature altogether, and that is unidentified flying objects, UFOs. Now I’m sure like me, you’ve seen an incredible spate of reportings, of UFOs being seen and foreign objects being shot down over various countries. And yes, we started with a spy balloon, which is pretty clearly that. And somehow ever since then, all the things that have been shot down are either unidentifiable, or there’s no footage of them, which I’ve found quite fascinating. And David has been digging into this subject for many, many years now and very kindly offered to come and talk to me about this.
I have no idea where this conversation is going to go. I have no idea what I’m going to find out, but I know that David is an incredibly thoughtful guy who spent an awful lot of time studying and thinking about this stuff. And I thought it would be a waste of an opportunity to not have a chat with him about this current spate of intergalactic phenomenon that we’re being bombarded with. So without any further ado, here is my conversation, the David Dorr. David, welcome back to the podcast, my friend. It’s so good to see you again.
David Dorr:
Yeah, likewise, it’s a pleasure and this one is going to be fun. This is going to be extra interesting.
Grant Williams:
This one is going to be a lot of fun. It’s so great to have the ability when things are going on to speak to people that follow stuff that you just don’t. And this is the perfect example of that, because the topic at hand is all the craziness on the front page of just about every newspaper in the world about, well, let’s stick to the old terminology, UFOs, for now.
David Dorr:
Yes, I agree.
Grant Williams:
Because we can get into how that’s changed over the years, but there’s just been this massive swell, and it’s funny. I’ve noticed it before. recently we had the congressional hearings, and I don’t know, there just seemed to be a shift of some sort in the whole dialogue around unidentified flying objects. And then boom, the last few weeks-
David Dorr:
Explosion.
Grant Williams:
It’s just been crazy. And so I’m fortunate in being able to talk to you about it, because you’re someone who’s actually spent a lot of time looking into this seriously. And so I just thought it’d be a really interesting opportunity to have a conversation about it with someone who knows something about it. I’m just kind of this bewildered child, almost. But I’m back to being a kid, looking up at the sky, wondering what the hell is going on.
David Dorr:
Grant, we all are. And people are going to ask, “What the hell? David, one day you’re talking about crypto. Today you’re talking about UFOs. And help string these dots together.” And so by no means am I an expert in this stuff, but to give a little context, look, anybody that’s in global macro, you have to operate a bit as a quick armchair expert on every new crisis that comes about. Everybody in macro, we’re all experts on Ukraine and Russia now and, before that, the pandemic. And now we’re all going to be experts on UFOs. And I was kind of making the joke with my team a little over a year ago. I even changed it on my Twitter handle that we’re really moving swiftly from the era of global macro to what I’ve kind of called, tongue in cheek, galactic macro. And there’s so much wild stuff going on.
And for me, listen, we don’t run a firm like Renaissance or Bridgewater. I have absolutely no alpha, no edge in systematic systems and global macro systematic. And so we have to look for our edge going where nobody is really paying attention or maybe really far out, like the subject at hand. And so either just by grace or dumb luck, we’ve been tracking this really close and there’s a lot of interesting stuff to share.
Grant Williams:
Well listen, let’s go back to the beginning of your journey with this first, because I think you and I are … I think I’m a slightly older vintage than you, certainly looking at the state of us both. You’re much younger versus me.
David Dorr:
Not at all, not at all.
Grant Williams:
But I think if I’m the leading edge of gen X, you may be the trailing end of Gen X. And so you and I grew up in a time where it was like peak Star Trek and aliens and all this kind of stuff. And so you couldn’t help but coming into contact with it as a kid, and it was always a subject of fascination but largely confined to the whole little green men from space type thing. So talk a little bit about your relationship with the subject, going back to being a kid.
David Dorr:
Yeah. So very similar, just like you, gen X, we grew up with working household, both parents working. And Hollywood had to entertain us with everything from X-Files to ET. And we tuned in and enjoyed, and we were perpetually curious. It made us think and imagine, and those were really worthwhile times to grow up. For my household, what I think may have been unique was that our father was really into the subject matter and in a very … My dad is a pretty serious guy, and he was into the subject matter in a really interesting way. He always pressed upon us that you want to have an open mind. You want to stay curious, but you also want to think critically. And I really attribute a lot of that to the career path that me and my youngest brother created for ourselves. So for us, these were conversations around the dinner table. Literally our whole life, all the time we had collections of books Time Life series and everything else. And he studied it as a hobbyist and a ufologist and really took the matter serious.
So because of that, I had a good context growing up around it from the entertainment side all the way to the taking it serious side, which has dovetailed well for what’s going on right now and particularly what’s happened in the last five and a half years, because that’s really what I think is what we’re going to look back historically and say there was a big inflection point in 2017.
Grant Williams:
Yeah. As you say that, it occurs to me that, if you’re a ufologist, you are an accidental stroke of a pen away from being a urologist, which is a whole different career path. But so let’s just do this last five years, then, because you are right. As I said to you at the beginning, I don’t really pay attention, but I’m aware, and I’ve noticed the subject cropping up time and time again just in little bits here and there. And I haven’t, I said, paid much attention to it. But I’ve realized in the last few weeks that I have been aware of this for the last five years. So you sent me a memo kindly before this conversation, which was a fascinating primer on this. So why don’t we go through that and go back to the inflection point in 2017.
David Dorr:
Yeah, so the key is here, and the audience is going to have to bear with us, because the story as that provide the filler in it, it just sounds completely crazy, completely crazy. So most people in general, because of main mainstream media and just everything, there have been pieces picked up. And so everybody, even without paying close attention, has noticed there’s been stuff going on in the media for the last five years. There was the sighting, the USS Nimitz off the coast of San Diego, which was in 2004, and 2017 was what kicked this off. So let me give everybody a little background, and we’ll fill this in. And then we’ll be able to accelerate from there.
Grant Williams:
Yeah, give us the story of that 2004 encounter, because reading that, it was extraordinary.
David Dorr:
Yeah, so what happened was there was a significant encounter by two of our Navy fighter pilots during a practice session, a training session off the coast of San Diego. And what they encountered was effectively what’s been known as the Tic Tac, because the UFO they encountered out there was shaped like a white Tic Tac. It was estimated to be about 30 to 40 feet in length and had no discernible flight surfaces, methods of propulsion, but was incredibly quick. They had spotted it on radar coming down, I think, from 60 to 80,000 feet in the air all the way to just hovering over the ocean. And when you have observations like that, it’s important to understand. I’m a data guy, I have an open mind, but I also want to see the data that supports this stuff. And what was so fascinating about that case is that there were so many components of data, including eyewitnesses and quite literally top gun type pilots that are reporting on this.
David Fravor was the pilot in charge of that, and he went to take a look at this UFO that was hovering over the water that they’d been sent out to observe, and this thing took off. And he made an arc around, and this thing was clearly intelligently controlled and kind of just paced them and toyed with him. And what was most interesting, if you watched the videos and interviews with him, because he talks about this a lot, and I think the takeaway for me in that particular incident, what stunned him was that what’s called their cap point where you’re supposed to return to is only known by the pilots. That’s not transmitted, per se. And enemy, an adversary wouldn’t be able to obtain that. And so when they left, this thing zipped off, and it arrived at their cap point. You’re getting into some really, really strange, strange territory there.
Now what happened was, from 2004 all the way to 2017, really nobody knew about it. And what happened in 2017 is the New York Times broke a series of articles around our special access programs and the United States government and Department of Defense. And through that, these videos, a series of videos with perfect chain of custody was released. And this was the aha moment for me, not just as a hobbyist, and hey, this is cool. This is something like out of The X-Files. This was a, holy crap, this is a policy shift. And for me doing a career in macro, I’m a policy nerd. I’m looking for those kind of things that … Where are we going to see a change in policy for better or worse? And the fact that the Department of Defense would be so forthright on it was stunning to me, and it hit mainstream news.
It was on all of the channels, but it was also going into the holidays. So it kind of came in and came out very quickly. But here’s the story on how that got in motion, because these participants are really important for the audience to understand. So again, going back to gen X, many people might remember. This is the crazy part of this story to me, crazier than the UFOs themselves, is a rock band called Blink 182. So Blink 182 was popular rock band in the ‘90s, and the lead singer was a rockstar named Tom DeLonge. So Tom DeLonge, and this is just … It just sounds so wild to me, even just telling his story, and I’m very familiar with it at this point. I’ve watched all his interviews. Tom DeLonge, turns out his hobby, he spends his time when he’s on the tour bus, and bored, he’s reading UFO books. And that’s his thing. That’s like that is his thing. Some people surf. Tom DeLonge is into UFOs like my dad, but except Tom is a rockstar.
So Tom, through channels, was able to … He makes a very unusual and unorthodox choice as a liaison for communicating top secret information from the Pentagon. But he was the guy. He worked his way into conversations with people, and whatever his sales pitch was, they found compelling enough. And he set up this group called To the Stars Academy of Arts and Science. And they were the ones responsible for bringing these videos forward with cooperation from the Department of Defense. Now I saw this, and at first I was like this is just silly. What am I even trying to interpret here? And so I looked into it, and here’s where the credibility for me starts to stack up and not taking anything away from Tom himself as a rockstar, but adding on the data, the science and people really hands on, involved. When Tom set up to the Stars Academy of Arts and Science, and I think he formed it that same year, 2017, maybe he added a year prior.
When you look at the people that he brought over onto his team that came out of the Pentagon, Chris Mellon, Hal Puthoff, Lou Elizondo, and you look up the backgrounds, look at these guys’ names, mind blowing. These guys are very serious guys. Chris Mellon, for example, was Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for intelligence underneath both Clinton and George Bush. Lou Elizondo ran the former. This was the special access program that was revealed by the New York Times. He was in charge of it. It was called ATIP at the time. And Hal Puthoff, for those of you that don’t know who he is, he’s my, he would be top of my list as the most interesting. There’s a free YouTube movie called Third Eye Spy on YouTube. Go on there, check it out. Hal Puthoff has been in the scenes of a lot of really interesting stuff with our CIA and our agencies for a very long time. He studied remote viewing, which was basically telepathic viewing to see if we could spy on the Russians and the Chinese and whoever else, and they were successful.
So we have a lot of really interesting stuff going on. He’s an incredible scientist himself. He’s been involved with these programs forever, still is involved. And you just have this really interesting cast of characters. So that’s when it hit our radar, and we said, “Okay, something is going. There is a shift in policy. There’s a shift in narrative that people are choosing, that have power here, are choosing to shape this.” And from there what happened was that these guys really started pushing to educate senators. And they’ve been doing so for the last couple years, incredibly successful, incredibly successful. And they’ve been able to pull out other, both retired and active servicemen and women that have had encounters. And so as it turns out, there’s tons of stuff. People will be like, well, if aliens were really here, why haven’t they landed on the White House yard? And when we start to actually look at the data, they practically have. There’s actually lots and lots and lots and lots of data. It’s not a limited set. There’s lots of stuff going on out there. And these guys have been educating senators.
Senator Marco Rubio is got on track with this a couple years ago. And then what happened was in the National Defense Authorization Act of 2022, the senators. Congress came together, and they decided to set up an agency to receive all the intel from all the other agencies on the subject matter so basically to have a more kind of out in the open reporting system for UFOs.
Now to see something like that passed in some of our most important legislation, I mean what do we spend more money on than anything else in the US? Weapons, defense-
Grant Williams:
Defense, yeah.
David Dorr:
Everything, and this was an open conversation in Congress, made it in. And then last year things started to really accelerate, is that we had our first congressional hearing on UFOs in more than 50 years, mind blowing. I mean again, the hearing itself was really dull. But the fact that it happened, and see, those are the things that we looked at as a macro firm. We’re like well, the fact that they’re even hosting that, no matter how boring the content is inside, whether they disclose anything or they don’t, the fact that that got scheduled, was made, and there’s a whole chain of reporting that’s now coming out into the open is furthering our view that there’s been a substantial policy shift. And then you get to the really interesting stuff, is the modification of the National Defense Authorization Act legislation for 2023, which was drafted last year.
In that what was happening is, because of the current congressional hearing, senators were not pleased with the speed and the level of access of information that was being given. And so they put in effectively what’s a whistleblower protection so that people that work in special access programs in the defense sector, retired or not, can come forward and share that information with Congress. And what’s fascinating is that this rolls back. That protection rolls all the way back to 1945 so even predating Roswell. And what also snuck into this congressional hearing, and I encourage everybody listening to this, do not take my word for this. Look it up yourself. It’s all in the public domain, so you don’t have to say, “My goodness, Grant and David, what, are you guys smoking banana peels today?”
Grant Williams:
Well they’ll probably say that anyway, but it’s just fascinating.
David Dorr:
Exactly. They’ll probably say it anyways, but look this stuff up. What made it into the congressional hearing that was the most important and slipped in kind of at the last moment, didn’t get discussed in the congressional hearing. It was just a blurb on it, is a memo known as the Wilson Davis memo. And this memo is a recorded conversation that was notated from a scientist that’s worked on these special access programs named Eric Davis with an admiral named Admiral Tim Wilson. And it’s wild. And like I said, you download it. I just download it to check, to make sure it’s still up. I mean you can download it right off of Congress’s website and read the memo and see what it says. There’s direct reference to crashed craft from other worlds, retrieval. There’s saying that we have them, that some of our top brass doesn’t have access to the programs. And this admiral was complaining about access to information on it but that we have craft from other worlds intact that we know how to use. And this is what senators are now pushing for.
I mean, this is mind-blowing, mind-blowing stuff that that’s even a thing. And then you arrive to what’s happened in the last week, and it’s very clear that the United States government is taking this stuff real serious. Even the remarks from the press secretary today, the fact that they even needed to clarify for the public that no, these aren’t aliens or extraterrestrials, you wouldn’t say that unless there was … I don’t want to speculate. You wouldn’t need to clarify that. They’re clarifying it, because according to the National Defense Authorization Act, we have a full budget for discerning those exact things. And they’re very careful to say there’s conflicting things. Was it a balloon, these last three that were shot down?
We shot down four objects now just in the last week. And if you look at all the everything they’re saying, they’re saying these are objects. They’re cautious not to label them balloons. First one was definitely a balloon, but the last three, one was octagonal. The other one in Alaska was messing with the equipment for the fighter jets. And I’m not saying that these are alien spacecraft, but what I’m saying is that I know a trend when I see one.
Grant Williams:
Right, yeah. And I think then that’s the fascinating thing, is the trend of this. Because again, as I say, I haven’t spent a lot of time on this. But I’ve been fascinated to watch it happen, and I remember back in … It must have been October last year. Ironically or given all the time spent on this, when Tom DeLonge announced he was rejoining Blink 182, and they were going to go out on tour again. And I think they’re out on tour now, so he may have given up precisely at the wrong time. I don’t know. But it’s the trends. Exactly, this is exactly right. And it’s a trend in a willingness and an openness to discuss these subjects. And it’s a trend in them being reported and not just reported but given credence by the platforms which are reporting them and on the basis that, in the last week, I haven’t seen a mainstream media, with the exception of the New York Post, touch the Seymour Hirsch article about the Nord Stream Pipeline. It’s fascinating to me to see every respectable broadsheet in the English-speaking world all over this UFO stuff.
David Dorr:
Right, exactly. They’re taking notice, and even in the press announcements today I can’t remember the word for word what they said. People can play it back. But they were referencing that this isn’t only an issue for the United States. This is a global issue. That was a curious remark. What’s a global issue? The balloon, are the Chinese? What specifically is a global issue? Now you talk to the people that are reporting and collecting the data on this, the UFOs, I prefer the classic term as well. UFOs believed to be from off planet, I mean these guys are absolutely saying it. And there’s some really interesting guys. There’s another guy that is absolutely worth a follow too.
So you may remember a reporter, an investigator from Las Vegas named George Knapp. He was in the late ‘80s, early ‘90s. He broke the Bob Lazar story, and Bob Lazar is a really fascinating character along this kind of trajectory of UFO disclosure. So Bob Lazar is the reason we know Area 51 as a pop culture thing, which is a real place, as we all know. It is a very real place. We know that Area 51 exists. That’s because Bob Lazar came out and told us. And for those that don’t know, just a quick blurb on Bob Lazar, Bob Lazar was at Sandia, Los Alamos. He was at one of the physics laboratories. He was a young physicist, and he got recruited basically by our military to study the propulsion systems for alien craft.
And that’s what he says. And he was investigated heavily by George Knapp, who was a reporter on a local TV station in Las Vegas at the time. George Knapp is a very serious guy. He was doing investigative journalism and covering mobs and corruption and all types of stuff. And he was fascinated by this case, and they went out, and they saw weird lights flying over Area 51. And he took his story, and this guy holds to that story to this day. Well George Knapp has a young kind of protege, a filmmaker who did a documentary on Bob Lazar named Jeremy Corbell and Jeremy Corbell is kind of a … He looks like a rocker, kind of like Tom DeLonge.
And this guy is amazing too. The stuff he’s getting from military folks passing him information that he then gets kind of the blessing from the Department of Defense to release. I think it was about two weeks ago, he just released a photo that was from Mosul, Iraq, and it shows this silver sphere by one of our spy planes that was taken in color. And it’s a silver sphere floating over a conflict zone. So I mean in my mind, there’s zero doubt. There is stuff going on. And of course, look, for all of us that grew up like this or whether you did or not, to me it’s like we just launched the James Webb telescope. Are we alone in the universe? I highly doubt it. I think the universe is probably teaming with life. And I think we’re going to have 2023 as an inflection point where we rediscover that curiosity as to what our role is in it. On the positive side, there’s going to be some really interesting stuff that I think will come out of this. I think we’ll see a huge boost in STEM programs. I think kids hopefully will stop looking at TikTok for a bit and look up at the stars. So yeah, it’s going to get wild.
Grant Williams:
So let’s unpack some of this stuff, because I always go back to what my buddy, Ben Hunt, said to me is. And that’s to ask the question, why am I reading about this now? And so I tend to wake up in the morning, and the first thing I put on is my cynical hat because that’s just the way I prefer to live my life. I find I get disappointed far less often doing that.
David Dorr:
I agree.
Grant Williams:
So with that firmly in place, I’m like well, okay. There’s an awful lot going wrong in the world right now. There are an awful lot of things that are troubling for governments. There are an awful lot of things that are causing them sleepless nights for policy makers, whether it’s inflation or social unrest or war in Ukraine or domestic politics or the end of globalization, whatever it may be. And hey, presto, when everybody is kind of about something, out of nowhere, we start reading left and right about something that is going to make everybody drop what they’re doing and look up the sky and go, “Ooh,” like the aliens in Toy Story. So I can’t help but ask that question. Why suddenly every day are we reading about this stuff?
David Dorr:
I totally agree with you. And I wake up with a similar hat, and Ben is a brilliant guy. His ability to dissect narrative, he’s an expert with narrative. And I think that that’s a really key light to shine on these issues. Yeah, it’s hard to say. Is this being created as a point of distraction? Absolutely, in some way or form. And we’re spending a lot of time on this internally at our firm. Actually we really start trying to figure out what’s going on. What is this going to lead to? Why now? And we have some small insights on that, not big ones. I think there’s a lot of question marks.
But some of them is that for me a large part of my career has been trying to find these phase shifts. And we love the word in our office, exponential. And the reason we like it is because it’s not so compatible with human thinking. Humans, we tend to think in a linear fashion, and so we find a lot of edge looking for something that will change exponentially. And it throws people off balance with expectations. Now what’s interesting with what we could just broadly call, and others, this is borrowing from what others are calling this, is the phenomenon, is that there has been an exponential increase in what’s taking place. Now when I say exponential increase, a lot of people, the first reaction is like well, is that because now everybody has got a cell phone with five cameras on it and can zoom in and our forward-looking infrared radar for our military is better, or they tweaked the radar system, as they’re talking about in the news today?
Which is total bullshit. NORAD didn’t just tweak their radar system to filter in more stuff and then go scramble jets and shoot something down. I don’t believe that for a second. But sensors is only part of it. So what we know from following the subject very close for the last five years is that exponential increase with existing systems like the traditional systems, it’s not just better systems. But even the existing systems are having an exponential increase in activity worldwide. So you have our top fighter pilots are reporting fleets of sightings. Our top radar guys are reporting fleets of UFOs. And I’m not talking drone swarms. This is not what they believe these things to be. They’re doing different stuff. So one part of us believes that the government is probably finding itself in a bit of a bind in that this may be, whatever is going on might be coming out one way or another. And so trying to shape some narrative and do good and air defense systems, they might be trying to get themselves out in front of it.
It could be to distract from subjects like what the Yale professor for a proposal for Japan is, that old people should kill themselves. Old people should start committing mass suicide to resolve our demographic and debt issues. So maybe UFOs is how the US government does it, entirely possible. But we think that there’s factually, there are two points of pressure that we can demonstrably see. One is that there is real political pressure that has come from these former teams, Chris Mellon, Tom DeLonge and their followers, have legitimately pressured really heavy a number of senators that have now gotten on that bandwagon. And part of the success of that pressure, Grant, is that they included a lot of servicemen, both active and retired in that pressure saying, “Hey, whatever the actual explanation turns out to be, we have a serious issue. Even if it is the Chinese, and they’ve figured out anti-gravity machines, we have to get to the bottom of it, because this is … It’s serious. No matter what you want to categorize it, there’s something serious going on, and we need to get to the bottom of that.”
So you take that plus an exponential increase, and you have that. Now I’ll tell you the theory that our CTO has, that he threw out, that I thought was pretty interesting as well. When you go back in history to the last time that we had so many sightings, and it was in the newspaper, and the government was talking about it and stuff, getting back to the Roswell era, it was when we exploded the first atomic bomb. It was kind of like maybe an advanced civilization said, “Holy crap, the monkeys have found fire. We need to at least start monitoring them and seeing what’s going on.”
But there was, when you look at how many nuclear tests we did and the explosion of, no pun intended, explosion to UFO sightings that accompanied that, it was extraordinary. And there’s a really, really good book on it. I don’t recall the name. I’ll find it, and we can put it on Twitter later. But there’s a book that covers this in fantastic detail, documenting all these sightings. We know these things have flown over nuclear air bases and shut off missiles. Not only for us, they’ve not only shut off our nukes, but they’ve done it for the Russians as well. So there’s something going on.
Now what our CTO says that I thought was provocative is he said, “Look, what are people talking about is potentially more dangerous than nukes, artificial intelligence.” What are we arriving at this year and over the next couple of years? We’re arriving at this inflection point in artificial intelligence. Maybe this is another like another … Now the monkeys have … They made it past fire, and now they got a keyboard. We’re back. We need to monitor these guys. I don’t know. I don’t know. There’s momentum. There’s certainly momentum, and I think that warrants all of us paying attention.
Grant Williams:
Well this is the fascinating thing, because it’s so easy to just go hooey and say, “Yeah, whatever, there we go, nut jobs talking about space again.” And I say I’ve never really spent an awful lot of time thinking about it, but I know when, as you say, there’s a sea change in a narrative. And I know that something is happening that it’s worth me watching. And I don’t know what my conclusions are going to be, but I know that I’m going to be paying more attention to this going forward. So let’s talk about why now there seems to be this incredible willingness on the part of governments, congressmen, senators, special committees, whatever it is, this incredible willingness to have an open dialogue about something that they basically shut down any talk of for 70 years?
David Dorr:
Yeah, I think that part of it’s generational. You have a lot of gen Xers that are in Congress now, and so I think it’s a more comfortable topic for them. There is a really interesting … If you divide up the reporting amongst the military branches, the one branch that’s noticeably absent from providing information, and this is interesting, is the United States Air Force. And what’s been stated, the reason for it is because of current existing high-ranking officials within the Air Force are generally more conservative, and the religious beliefs are making this uncomfortable. That’s been reported a lot over the last decade. But I think it’s a combination of openness. I think certainly the United States would love something to keep us distracted from our soaring debts and inflation and just go into the poorhouse. So I don’t doubt that that’s an element of it, and I do think that there is a general concern that, I think for the less informed senators, so some of them are read in. They’re seeing classified stuff, and they’ve come out, and they’re like this looks like Star Wars.
The ones that are seeing the high-definition videos, we’re seeing the pixelated, low grade, low grade crap.
Grant Williams:
I was going to ask you about that.
David Dorr:
Yeah, which is super frustrating. Think about it. Are we supposed to believe that we’ve shot down four objects, and the last three, that we don’t have any coverage of this? They haven’t found the wreckage yet. There’s no high-definition video. I mean we got drones too, and they’re amazing. You just drop a drone out of an Apache and zip down and find that. I don’t know. We know for a fact that the classified information is high definition. There are high-definition videos and sensors. They’re very, very, very delicate, because that starts to reveal sources and methods. And what we’ve been studying is that the less informed senators, their concern is that an adversary has advanced systems. The more informed senators are like we have ET. They’re like no, we might look back and wish that it was Russia. We don’t know, but something far, far, far more sophisticated is going on.
And by the way, part of these reports include things that are zipping through our oceans at 400 knots and above and effortlessly through the ocean, through the atmosphere, through space. And it’s not a coincidence that we have a space force. Your pal, and I’m a big fan of Dr. Pippa Malmgren.
Grant Williams:
Pippa, yeah.
David Dorr:
Yeah, Pippa is brilliant. I love reading her stuff. She did a blog post last year on UAP, and what she’s been saying for a while is the space race is on. So I think that those are probably other very real factors, is that there’s a lot going on and going up that we probably don’t understand fully the gravity of, that the new battles are in space. So I think that even if we just rule out all the aliens, I think there’s legitimate concern from both parties in the United States is that hey, we need to be on top of this. That’s my guess.
Grant Williams:
It’s interesting, because when I knew we were going to have this conversation, I saw something on Twitter. I tagged you in it yesterday about all these stories happening. And we got into an interesting exchange with someone that saw it and who was an F-35 pilot. And it was fascinating to read someone, because I was basically asking, “How come these things are unidentified, if it’s shot down with a sidewinder missile?” I’m like I’ve seen Top Gun: Maverick. I know how close you get to these things, and you can see it. But how was anything unidentifiable? And then I posted a picture of seven F15s escorting a jumbo jet and flying 10 feet away from it. I’m thinking, how is anything in this day and age and identifiable? And it’s interesting, this guy, very thoughtful responses talking about, as an F-35 pilot, how fast you go and why it can be tough. And he was very generous with his knowledge and sharing it.
But there were even parts in there that you said yeah, I haven’t got an answer to that particular question. And they revolved around opacity and angles, and there were all kinds of things that even incredibly highly trained F-35 pilots, they can answer so much. And then you get to a point like yeah, that part, I just don’t know. Right?
David Dorr:
That’s right, yeah. And that’s what’s so interesting. And I enjoyed that exchange immensely. As much as I want to think that I’m the next Tom Cruise, and I know how to fire sidewinder missiles as well, it’s great talking to people that-
Grant Williams:
You’ve just got to get tone. You’ve got to get tone. That’s all I know. Got to get tone. Once you got tone, it’s all fine.
David Dorr:
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, and it was great, this guy. For those who listen, this guy, he was an F-35 pilot. And he was super polite and engaging, and it was cool. I love that. And that’s one of the things that’s great about Twitter, to get that kind of qualified engagement. But it kind of looped back around.
The video that I shared in that thread was one of the … There’s been a handful of videos with chain of custody, and that was one of them. And so for those listening ,and they can find that thread you and I were in, in Twitter, that link, which is available on YouTube and was released and has been studied upside down and backwards, was an object that was tracking over Puerto Rico.
And as it was flying over Puerto Rico, they were getting kind of a lock on it and tracking it. And it wasn’t moving particularly fast, but it headed out, and it just cut through the water. It went from being in the air to just gliding through the water like a knife through hot butter, and then it separated while moving through the water and, not slowing down for a blink, separated into two pieces traveling at the same speed through the water. I mean I can’t even fathom what is that. What are we dealing with? So these are fascinating things, and they’re all over. There’s just a ton of stuff going on.
Grant Williams:
So let’s talk about the implications of this, because you and your guys have obviously spent some time thinking this through. And as you said a while ago, your conclusions aren’t fully formed. But as I sit and think about this, and obviously it’s all happening when we’ve got the rover on Mars. And we’ve got Musk threatening to leave the planet and go and live there, which I wish he’d just hurry up and do, frankly. But anyway, that’s the whole other story.
David Dorr:
Yeah, I’ll help fund that voyage. That’ll be the one thing that I invest in him.
Grant Williams:
Right. But so talk a little bit about your kind of preliminary conclusions. Because I mean literally, I’ve sat down and thought about this for the last few days after I knew we were going to have this conversation. Now I was really kind of keen to have the conversation, and when I sat down and thought about the implications and what to do with it, I couldn’t find anywhere to start. I couldn’t get a toehold anywhere.
David Dorr:
Yeah, we were the same. I was stuck for a while too. I was saying, “Okay, the trader and me has still got to make a living. So even if Martians are still going to invade, what do I do? Do I want to be short all these markets, and we’re going to have a major selloff?”
Grant Williams:
Well, the Fed will cut rates if Martians invade. We know that much, right? That’s a given.
David Dorr:
Exactly, guaranteed, guaranteed. So we did look at this, and there’s really two things that we’ve come up with, that are really, really interesting to us. One, I absolutely believe that one of the most interesting companies in the world right now is Lockheed Martin. We think, our firm actually believes that Lockheed Martin is sitting on alien spacecraft. I sincerely believe that. Straight faced, yeah, I really believe that. And so we want to be long Lockheed Martin. We are long Lockheed Martin. Not investment advice, but we are long Lockheed Martin. We’re also long Northrop Grumman for similar reasons. And similar to that, kind of bridging over is that we think of those companies as aerospace defense companies. But they are potentially the most interesting energy companies in the world. Because if you follow, and look, I’m not a physicist, not even for a day. I would be a terrible armchair physicist on Twitter.
But our best stab at trying to understand some of the really crazy physics papers that accompany theories on what’s going on, and by the way, there’s some really fascinating patents that the Navy has on this type of stuff, warp drives and everything else, is that when you contemplate, if we have anti-gravity.
So let’s say that we collected something. The aliens left us alone. They’re not going to invade us, but we’ve got antigravity, just the physics of that, the energy that has figured out how to harness is mind bending. And so if you think of everybody that’s been a uranium bull for the last couple years, if you like uranium, you’re going to love antigravity. You know what I mean?
Grant Williams:
Yes, no kidding.
David Dorr:
So there’s so much that’s going on. So a lot of people don’t know this about us, but I’m going to kind of bridge this gap, is that we look for unusual macro themes that are not well covered or understood, like today’s topic.
Grant Williams:
Well you’ve found one here. Yeah, you’ve found one here, for sure.
David Dorr:
We found one here, for sure. This is by far the most intriguing. But the other one where we’re really active that I think is … And this is how I’ll tie it in. The other one we’re really active is we’ve always traded environmental commodities from the founding of our company. Carbon credits, renewable energy certificates, we’re very active in those markets and have been for 13 years. And we’re actually in the middle of a trade right now which is a biodiversity credit. Sounds pretty exotic, and it’s really what’s happening is one of our big macro themes. And this has been an overarching macro theme since our start, is that nature as an asset class is going to come into things, not just the BS ESG stuff and nonsense, but you’re going to see nature come onto the balance sheet. And if anybody doubts that, don’t take my word for it.
Look at what the New York Stock Exchange is doing with NACs. Almost nobody knows this. We’re all familiar with SPACs, but what’s most interesting is NACs, which is a natural asset company. And it’s effectively a way to take a piece of conservation and then take it public. Now why do I mention that? Because we’re in that space, and we trade everything. I trade oil. I trade gas. It’s not just environmental commodities. We trade whatever. What’s interesting is if you look at the incredible pressure, and this is well known by everybody listening, the incredible pressure on oil and gas companies, which is just completely trying to bend them to the will of environmentalists that have no grounding in reality of what’s necessary for transition. Shell just got sued again for green washing, for spills in Nigeria. And the pressure is just mounting. If there is a shift as people are looking for clean energy, and everybody is looking for it, and you see, and we discovered that that shift comes from reverse engineering alien technology, you have just a complete change in market dynamics.
And what’s interesting is one of the most incredible UFO cases in history, the most famous was Roswell, but Roswell is not the most interesting. There’s a case in Brazil that’s very interesting. There’s a case that was in Zimbabwe. And in Zimbabwe, I think this was in the, I think this was in the ‘80s in Zimbabwe. This UFO landed, broad daylight in front of a schoolyard. These kids saw it. There’s a whole documentary on this. It’s super well documented. And these kids saw it. These aliens come out, and these aliens are like, “You guys are destroying the planet.” And that was the telepathic message. And these kids, there’s this documentary that was recently done on it. These kids, it was incredible. They all told the same story, and individually they had the exact same experience.
And so again, I don’t know. Are we at a tipping point climatically? I don’t know. We certainly are in biodiversity loss. To me, what’s compelling in trading environmental markets is it’s not even the parts per million of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. It’s actual biodiversity collapse. That data is really, really, really scary. And so again, I don’t know. I’m just kind of speculating here, but these are the things we’re looking at where this stuff ties together. I think we could have an energy black swan or green swan, if it’s positive. I don’t know how you’d describe that, but energy is really high on our list of disruption.
Grant Williams:
It’s fascinating, because we’ve spent so much time looking at left tail risk, and there’s so much out there to look at and so much to get your head around and so much to assign probabilities to. And whenever you talk to people about right tail risk, cold fusion is a common one that comes up, and Goldilocks is another one. But this stuff is pure right tail, unless obviously these guys come out, and they don’t go full Independence Day on us.
David Dorr:
Then it won’t matter, yeah.
Grant Williams:
Which is a left tail risk, but it’s so fascinating, because whether you are skeptical, whether you’re a firm believer in this stuff, it doesn’t really matter. It’s something that’s so interesting to think about, if you want to just take the time to do it and open your eyes and entertain outcomes that might seem completely and utterly far fetched. But the more you dig into this stuff, and since we agreed to do this, to have this conversation, I’ve dug into this stuff. And I have to say, I’m skeptical as I always am about all this stuff. But I find it truly fascinating when you dig into it just that there actually is some there there. It’s not just little green men and secret, secret stashes in the Nevada desert.
David Dorr:
So I’ll give you even a preview. So we try and get ahead of these curves, and we try and identify experts or the people that are shaping these narratives, whether those narratives are false or true or whatever else, and then just seeing where it’s going. And so we’ve been fortunate in that there’s over five years now since Tom DeLonge and similar groups cooperating together have been doing this. And we’ve watched a bunch of their podcasts, and this stuff is all … I mean it’s all free. It’s all on the internet.
But if you track this stuff closely with what they’re kind of alluding to that we’re going to discover next, it’s wild. I mean what they’re saying is like look, okay. Now we’re kind of getting out of the way that, look, there’s UFOs. And yes, we’ve probably been contacted, and this is where it gets into History Channel type stuff, ancient aliens and everything else. But there’s a paper that can be downloaded, that was written by Hal Puthoff, I think it was in the Journal of Cosmology.
And he’d been sitting on the paper for a long time, years and years and years and finally got it peer reviewed and published. And it’s called Ultra Terrestrials. And absolutely you got to read this thing. It’s mind bending, and it’s his various … And this is one guy. Like I said at the beginning of this, if there’s one guy that I would watch very, very, very carefully what he says, what he’s doing, that I believe is fully in the know, it’s that guy. It’s Dr. Hal Puthoff. And when you read his paper, it’s just mind expanding. I mean, there’s hypothesis that we’ve had breakaway civilizations and that they’re here. There’s hypothesis that this is us from the future traveling back in time. And as crazy as these things are, when you start to read through it in the way a actual physicist would put it forward, it starts to become plausible.
You’re like that makes sense. That’s not as wild and crazy as it sounds. I mean, this is how science fiction books get written. They take ideas from real world understandings of physics and quantum physics. And just another one to drop on everybody that’s fascinating, this was one that my dad was really intrigued by. And again, there’s just so much material on this. Anything that I forget the name of on this show, I’ll post in your Twitter feed with links to the books. But there was a book written several decades ago from a guy that was in the Army and worked for a general that was in, allegedly a general that was in charge of the Roswell retrieval.
And what he claims is that we were successful in passing off some of the technology from these crashed craft and passing that to the private sector. And the fourth technologies, and this is what I encourage people to think about. I’m not suggesting this is true. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions. But the four technologies were the microchip processor, lasers, fiber optics and microwave technology. And what’s fascinating is, so when I say those to you, just pause and think on just those four technologies and humanity’s curve of ascension.
Grant Williams:
Well and not only that, but imagine talking about microwave technology 50 years before the microwave was invented. You’re going to zap and heat your food instantly with some invisible ray. I mean it’s the stuff-
David Dorr:
It’d be absurd stuff.
Grant Williams:
Yeah, exactly right.
David Dorr:
Again, if that’s true, and there’s good reasons to believe that it is, this is why we have a play on Lockheed. And I have no shame or embarrassment in saying these things, because this is what I love about my career. I get to go do wild, crazy stuff exactly like this and take punts on really exotic themes. But if that’s the case, and we are, and I believe this truly to be the case. Everything that my team, this has gone from hobby to like we’re digging in. And I sincerely believe that we have off-world craft.
We understand it. We’ve utilized it. We’ve reverse engineered it, and we know how to do things with it. So if there’s now pressure mounting that that comes out, what happens next? Do we have an energy revolution? Don’t know. I hope so.
Grant Williams:
Fascinating, fascinating. Well, David, before we close, you’ve mentioned Dr. Puthoff. Just for people, I was going to say that there’ll be people that have whatever, rubbish. But we lost them a long time ago, so the only people here after an hour are the people who are like this is interesting, the same as me. I don’t know if I believe it or not, but I’m fascinated by it. So just tell people who are interested in, as the great Ted Lasso said, being curious and not judgemental. If they do want to follow this, what’s the best way for them to do that? Where are the best places to keep an eye, to try and follow the story?
David Dorr:
Yeah, so I would suggest, follow Tom DeLonge. He’s out there, but he’s very outspoken and open, and he’s super interesting and deserves a lot of credit. Follow Lou Elizondo. Lou Elizondo is absolutely vital to this initiative ,because he was a former head of ATIP and running the program. He’s really, really, really a key person. Hal Puthoff, I don’t think he’s got any social media channels, but he’s in interviews. You can find plenty of information on him on YouTube. Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp are excellent. Ryan Graves, who was one of the witnesses to UFOs, and he’s now retired as a fighter pilot, he’s now launched. I haven’t had a chance to listen to much of it, but he now has a podcast and is bringing other servicemen and women onto the podcast. And he’s been active with senators as well.
So Ryan Graves, Ross Colthart, who’s a journalist, he was a journalist from Australia, is amazing. And he’s got a colleague who, forgive me, I’m forgetting his name, but he’s fantastic. These guys are doing just amazing, amazing job covering this stuff and investigating it, really amazing. Those would be, I would say those would be several of my kind of topics. And Gary Nolan, Gary Nolan is an absolute intriguing character that’s kind of risen to popularity and intrigue just over the last year. Dr. Gary Nolan, he’s a scientist at Stanford, and he was brought in studying Havana Syndrome, which you may have heard of. Are you familiar with Havana syndrome?
Grant Williams:
No. No, no.
David Dorr:
Have you heard that? Okay, so we had government personnel in Havana and other diplomats that have passed through there, and they were getting effectively brain injury. And it seemed like it was like a microwave blast at their heads. And this was being reported, and so it became known as Havana Syndrome. If you Google it, you’ll see a bunch of stuff come up. And Dr. Gary Nolan was helping study that.
And he was asked actually by the CIA to study a series of cases, because it mimicked Havana Syndrome, but it was from servicemen that had had exposure to reported UFO events. And he found similar patterns with the radiation, and he’s been everywhere. He’s all over now. Gary Nolan, you’ll find tons of stuff on him. He’s very interesting. So those would be a handful of what I consider reputable and very interesting key people that are in this space. There’s a dozen more, but starting with those is more than enough to wet the appetite.
Grant Williams:
Fantastic.
David Dorr:
For anybody that’s still with us.
Grant Williams:
Fantastic. Hey, listen. Hey, listen, you and I are still here. I don’t care if it’s just you and me talking. I’m fascinated by the whole thing. Well look, the other resource obviously for people listening to this is you. So tell people how they can follow you and not just the stuff that you post about this but also the other great work you do at Dorr Capital, because you are just such a great follow on Twitter for all sorts of things.
David Dorr:
Yeah, I appreciate it. So the best place to find me is absolutely on Twitter. My handle is David Dorr, last name is D-O-R-R. Our website is Dorrasset, and basically the easiest place to find us is LinkedIn or Twitter, is the best way to get in touch. And we’re always happy to engage with other curious minds out there. So reach out anytime to those of you that are enjoying this.
Grant Williams:
Fantastic. My friend, if I have had a thought at the beginning of last week that I’d spend an hour talking about aliens and UFOs and come away with my head buzzing my questions, I’d have told you you were crazy. But this has been so much fun. I really appreciate you doing this at short notice.
David Dorr:
Likewise.
Grant Williams:
And I look forward to following the story with you, because I just find it engaging and highly, highly fascinating, so thank you.
David Dorr:
Yeah, likewise, Grant. It’s always a pleasure, and thank you for entertaining this stuff with me. It’ll be a journey for all of us together.
Grant Williams:
Amen. All right, my friend, I will talk to you again soon. Thanks again, David.
David Dorr:
All right, cheers.
Grant Williams:
Well, I’ve got to say, I may have botched the quote the first time around, but as Ted Lasso said, be curious, not judgmental. And I have to say, I found that absolutely fascinating. And I can fully understand why there will be many, many people who either gave up halfway through and just poo-poo the whole thing, which is absolutely understandable and completely fair. But for me, I just think it’s too fascinating to not think about it and spend a little time wondering what this all might mean, because there is a reason for this spate of reportings about all these incidents. I don’t know what it is, yet, I have absolutely no clue.
But it was great chance to talk to David. I found the whole thing just riveting, and I look forward to following the story with him, and hopefully some of you will come along with me on the journey. That’s for me for another edition of the podcast. I will be back again with another guest in the not too distant future. In the meantime, thank you particularly this week for listening.
Nothing we discussed should be considered as investment advice. This conversation is for informational and hopefully entertainment purposes only. So while we hope you find it both informative and entertaining, please do your own research or speak to a financial advisor before putting a dime of your money into these crazy markets.
